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for what he did and not tie him to ronald reagan. we make a mistake when we look for ronald reagan. we were not looking for lincoln when we found reagan. and we were looking for a landlorder and we found one the other night. >> so many conservatives feel your father set the high bar in the presidential debates. >> i think they probably did. that is the only person they have been able to quote. they had no other republican to quote . now there is another republican. i bruced mitt romney a couplev years ago in the los angeles california club and i said to the group that is there. let's not make the mistake of looking for the next ronald reagan. we may do that and walk past the next great leader of our movement. when you put machine up against ronald reagan. they will fail because it is ronald reagan. let mitt romney have his moment and applaud him and not try to tie him to the past buto. >> why do people say you need that phrase and sentence in a debate that can be remembered for people going forward for the generation toz come. why do you have to have that pivotal moment. >> they are the gam
they do it in the november/december period or do it right away. >> ronald reagan said not only tax cuts, but what represented a big tax increase and closing of a number of loop holes that this president has taken to mean that the gipper was for raising taxes. but he closed loop holes because reagan thought it was a sin to use that to avoid paying taxes. do you think that closing loop holes and getting rid of credits and allowance. >> not if it is revenue neutral. that is the key. when i heard about that. we were in japan for an economic summit with the president and someone called and said they have a deal and take the top rates from 50 to 28 percent and i yelled take it. i said tell them we'll take it. >> we look at the numbers. >> it is a big are number. >> and get rid of an awful lot of these things. you take a deal like that any time. >> who said -- you are a pragmatic guy. >> i used to be a supply sergeant. you are a giver and not a taker. >> and pat buchanan one of the finest speakers of the conservative mope e move a hell of a writer, too. >> my senator from my state joins us. to
republican primary george bush had momentum against ronald reagan until the debate. there was a moment where reagan looked strong. >> john: that moment helped change the campaign. >> read my lips. [ applause ] >> incidents between a hockey mom and pit bull, lip stick. >> others is seize ago moment you didn't expect to happen. >> there you go again. >> most moments so far this election has been poorly fliazed comments. >> if you got a business, you didn't build that. somebody else made that happen. >> i like being able to fire people and put services to people. >> they call them gaffes but the media don't know. when ed uskie lost the '72 primary, everyone said candidates can't cry because that is weak, but then in 2008, hillary clinton cried. >> i have so many opportunities in this country. >> she begin to tear up. her voice cracked. she showed being human. [ applause ] >> this is very personal for me. >> people perceive that as weakness. i think they will. >> it makes her look like the campaign is in trouble. >> the days before, clinton showed was showed ten points behind. the next day she b
his relacks to the -- reaction to the presidential race. it compared mitt romney to ronald reagan. he believes the campaign will play out like the reagan carter race did. >> i have always thought that romney was some what in the position that ronald reagan was back in 1980 that people were looking for a change. carter had faced all of these difficulties, you know, the iranian hostage double dig get misery index in many respects worse situation than obama faces politically. yet they were neck and neck going in. people were looking for a reason to change. there was this irresponsible cowboy that the media had painted really wroul mqualify a serious candidate and people saw it i think to a certain extent dynamic is playing out of here. >> thompson also went on to say he believes all of the obama camp has right now in the election is the power of the income ben see and money. >> let's talk weather now. first degree update with maria molina. >> it is chilly out there? >> it is chilly across the great lakes and the midwest. we have a chunk of the country that has temperatures a little below
, though, like ronald reagan, in his re-election effort, the unemployment rate had gone -- gone down by 1.4%. >> gregg: from 10.8% down to 7% and after his re-election down to 5. >> the last year prior went down 1.4 point and now, it has gone down 1.2 points and momentum is important and where you are, is not where we want to be but people can sense the momentum and see where it is going. >> gregg: john, you brought up the reagan comparison and he had interest rates almost 20% and runaway inflation and none of that afflicted this particular president. in fact, you know, the unemployment rate for ronald reagan was higher and the unemployment rate for the president. >> well, it went to 10.8, i believe... and i mean, if you are saying that ronald reagan inherited a worse economy. >> gregg: he did. >> i don't know how you can make the argument. >> gregg: are you kidding. >> we lost 800,000 jobs. >> gregg: unemployment was higher, inflation was higher and interest rates were higher. >> in twa2009, january we lost 741,000 jobs and if that trend continued, we almost had a second great depression
's reagan?" you have got to be kidding. the reality is no, he's not ronald reagan. ronald reagan had core values. you saw those in the debates. you saw that in his life. i don't think barack obama has core values at all. he listens to whoever is talking to him and espouses the talking points. is barack obama ronald reagan? i know ronald reagan. he was my father and friend. barack is no ronald reagan thank god. megyn: we had scott on a couple weeks ago when he was one of the lone pollsters showing this a tight race. whenever that seems to happen, scott, they seem to take shots at you as somebody who is not reliable and does haven't good polls. even though -- even though now all these polls are showing what you are showing -- the republicans put out today a list of the polls that show this race tightening and it's across the pollsters showing this race tightening in all the states you mention. despite here, here is what chuck todd said about you. >> we spent a lot more money polling than scott rasmussen does. >> he was right the last couple elections. >> he got it right at the end. you guys
important than what you say is how you look on television. >> john: so they obsess over details. when ronald reagan debated walter mondale, beckel was campaign manager along with rollins. >> do you remember how high the podiums was going to be. >> we had teams negotiating. the color of the room. >> john: what difference would that make? >> in certain conditions, in certain colors work for certain candidates. >> because mondale was shorter than reagan. >> i remember we debated for seven and a half feet and nine feet for days. >> two-thirds of defense budget pays for pay and salary or pay and pension. >> he looked tired and ragged. the observation they spent too much time with 77-year-old guy trying to beat every factoid into his brain. >> they said reagan is too old for president. in the next debate he was ready for that. >> i will not make age an issue of this campaign. i am not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent's youth and inexperience. [ laughter ] >> he delivers this line and there is sense of humor come in. you see the curl but you know he is delivering a great line and
in the building since used it as justification. ronald reagan advocating raising taxes period. that is not what he said. what do you say? do you draw the line that credits and closing loopholes is a tax increase? so don't think about it? >> guest: no. eliminate those that don't serve purpose. >> it's not a tax -- >> it is. it needs to be offset by reducing the rate. re-knew neutral, rates down. >> neil: romney talk it about cutting everyone's taxes by 20% and he is going to create the allowances and as he says make it in the end revenue natural -- >> that is not a tax increase. >> neil: ill's a tax cut. allowing for upper income people might find themselves at best with a wash. some may pay more. >> guest: we are looking for overall not raise tax burden on people. >> neil: i want to be clear. you are on board with the rich carrying a bigger chunk of the burden if their deductions are phased out or limited? >> guest: as long as rates don't go up and the overall tax burden doesn't go up, the tax reform is perfectly acceptable. that is a good idea. >> neil: okay. grover, thank you very much. he is a
of negotiating. and i alluded to ronald reagan who was open to getting some if not most of what he wanted because it meant getting none of what he wanted. jerry brown tax cut which was a flat tax rate on everyone. no progressivity and replacing all federal taxes with two flat rate taxes it was not revenue neutral and it had a little bit of positive revenue. i supported that all of the way because of the tremendous boon bye getting rid of the income tax and i think it would have been wonderful. we need to compromise on all of the issues but not until we have a good position. i don't want to compromise before we start the discussion. i think -- >> wait until the election. >> and then sit down with your people. you don't give away your fail back position before you start. >> we'll see. thank you very much. >>> and how the rest of the world, thank you. and how the rest of the world is viewing us and this and the back and forth and dismissing all of not that they are q. in great shape themselves. but we are hardly looking like fiscal jack lalanes. can what is happens over there happen over here? don't
agreements-- >>> do you have the specifics? >> look at what -- look at what ronald reagan and tip o'neill did. they worked together out of a frame work to lower tax rates and broaden the base and fix na. we are saying, here's our frame work, lower tax rates 20%. we raised $1.2 trillion in income taxes and forego $1.1 trillion in loophole deductions. we are saying, deny the loopholes and deductions to higher-income taxpayers, so more of their income is taxed -- >> can i translate? >> to lower the tax rates across the board. what we are saying -- >> i hope i get time to respond-- >>> you will get time. >> we want to work with congress on how best to achieve this. >> martha: no specifics? >> lower tax rates 20%, start with the wealthy. work with congress to do it? >> martha: you guarantee this math will add up. >> six studies have guaranteed and verified. >> martha: vice-president -- [overlapping dialogue] >> let me translate. let me have a chance to translate. >> first of all, i was there when ronald reagan tax rates and he gave specifics of what he was going to cut, number 1 nterms of tax expe
is going to be, i think that he will have as much impact as ronald reagan, if not more. >> he'll do better than ronald reagan. >> i felt that for a long time, so... >> arthel: carl cameron is live in apopka, florida where the governor is set to take the stage, fund-raising news from both campaigns, carl? >> reporter: that's right, may be a while before we see governor romney, it is lightning country in florida and the campaign's arrival is delayed because of fear that it might be a threatening storm. a big crowd here and big money raised by mitt romney since the debate. his debate performance clearly caught the attention of both republicans, who were worried about the trajectory of his campaign and new voters and the campaign is reporting since the debate performance they've raked in more than $12 million, and, just today, the romney campaign undertaking a national teleconference, and phone banking exercise, made another 2 million contacts with what they hope to be new republican voters. it is a $12 million boost into the debate for mitt romney and stands in the face of staggering numbers
'neill and ronald reagan worked together some years ago. when ronald reagan ran for office, he laid out the principles he was going to foster. he said he was going to lower tax rates. he said he was going to broaden the base. have you said the same thing, simplify the tax code, broaden the base. i want to bring down the tax burden on middle-income families. i will work with congress to say, what are the ways to bring down deductions? one way would be to have a single number -- make up a number, 25,000 -- 50,000, anybody can have deductions up to that amount. and that number disappears for high-income people. one could follow bowl etion-simpson and make deductions that way. there are alternatives to the objective i have, which is to bring down rate, broaden the base, simplify the code and create incentives for growth. with regard to health care, you have remarkable details with regard to my pre-existing plan. you studied up on my plan. i do have a plan for pre-existing conditions. what we did in massachusetts is a model for the nation -- state by state. i said that at that time. the fede
are ronald reagan. >> jack kennedy -- >> jack kennedy coming up in these debates. both men covered several elections. biden came off as rude he has never seen anything like this from any other candidate. >> what you saw while paul ryan was talking was smirking, laughing, smiling, mugging, by the vice president. and my sense about it was that it was so xheling people couldn't see the keep their eye off of it. i thought it was unattractive and rude and i have a feeling it will come across as rude. it looks like a cranky old man to some extent debating a polite young man. >> i think i have watched almost every presidential and vice presidential debate since the first four kennedy nixon debates since 1960 thinking back over the next few minutes i don't believe i have ever seen a debate when one participant was as openly disrespectful as the other as biden was to paul ryan. you can talk about the smirks the head shaking, it was con tenuous and disrespectful. >> that lead us to our brew on this question of the day. what did you think of the debate? send your comments via tweet. tweet them to us
, i think there's a very strong majority of the american people who still believe that in ronald reagan's approach through peace through strength. that a strong america is what dissuaded them from attacking our interest. i think that president obama has exactly the opposite point of view. he believes that american strength is provocative. he's one of those people that jean kirkpatrick called a blame america first democrat and thinks if america is more retiring from the world, seeing that the rest of the world will treat us better. i think that's totally divorced from reality. >> kelly: you know, we're talking about issues as relates to benghazi, libya, but there's also iran and syria and also the entire middle east. looking ahead, what do you anticipate from a possible romney presidency with regard to dealing with those particular situations and even israel? >> well, i think the reverse of the president's view of the world is, it's not american strength that's provocative. it's american weakness that's provocative. i think a lot of our adversaries, internationally have looked at
they will have as much as ronald reagan did, he's going to do bet. >> i felt that for a long time. >> well, the wives of course in in race have high approval rating and favor ann romney and favor michelle obama, the wives are a huge asset. >> and president obama was off the campaign trail yesterday and finally celebrating his wedding anniversary, as you know fell on the night of the debate. so mitt romney was unencumbered on the campaign trail. there was no response that the president could give to anything that mitt romney did. and mitt romney seemed to energize after the debate. >> every year the median income has gone down, 4,300 a family ab with average family income around 50,000 bucks, that hurts. gasoline prices are up twice what they used to be. these are tough years for the middle class and for the poor in america. and if we calculate it, by the way, our unemployment rate in a way that was consistent with the way it was calculated when he came into office, be a different number. if the number of people shall the percentage of the american population in the work force were the same
ronald reagan. he was making a speech that talked about not just with pretty words but with policies, where he understands america can use the economic power to influence events and help shape world events, use our economic power in the sense of phone aid, if we get it, we want something back. but he talked about american military, he talked about, for example, putting aircraft carrier groups and men in the gulf, using economic warfare against iran using sanctions, tightening the sanctions and he realizes like reagan, that the notion of peace through strength is not just a throw away line but have a strong military so you never have to use it because no one picks a fight with you. >>eric: let me give you another soundbite talking about cutting off aid to egypt if we need to. that was in the introduction, sorry. we also have one where he talked about potentially how we should deal with libya. are you satisfied with what you heard? >>guest: what he has talked about doing is understanding events have happened. he was not angry and did not say you have done this wrong, obama, or that wro
debate since 1980 when ronald reagan ran against carter, and there was only one debate that year. >> a week before the election. >> that was the first time in the last 100 years republicans took out an incumbent. the one that this debate in terms of viewership tied with was in 1992 when clinton ran against bush. again, when an incumbent was being taken out. the reason so many people tuned in is because they know obama's taking the country in the wrong direction. they know they're underemployed. i don't care what number the obama administration gets flashed up on a tv screen, they know they're out of work, and they wanted to see if they're comfortable with the challenger. not only were they comfortable, they'll keep being comfortable. the reason romney is going to keep doing very well in the debates is because you never get to see him. the media tells us, you know, gives us snippets, paraphrase, in other words what he was trying to say is. let's see what he said. >> sean: if you want to look at polls -- we're still 29 days out. four weeks in a campaign we all agree is an eternity,
gap, two points from the president. this is person and ronald reagan was the last republican to win. maybe credit is, well, to this guy, republican pennsylvania governor, only one of four governors to get a grade of "a." in a new ca testimony o -- ca testimony o tax reform policies. the fine governor joining me now. governor, thank you for coming. >>guest: thanks for having me on today. >>neil: maybe your policies are helping, but it cuts both way. i am sure you just want them to feel their lot is improving regardless of who politically benefits. why do you think the polls are narrowing? what are they discovering? >>guest: well, in regard to the polls here in pennsylvania, what i see are people that are starting to go back to work. we are slowly getting the economy moving in pennsylvania. we have growth going on in our energy sector, in our biotech sector. we saved jobs down in philadelphia with the refineries that were going out of business a year ago. there is a positive feeling that is starting, just starting. as it goes to the polls, i don't think that people in pennsylvania are
lost to ronald reagan. why do you, a guy who wasn't conscious at that time, why do you want to make a movie like this? >> it was a great story. for one thing, it's a thriller. it's actually comedy with the hollywood satirea complicated c.i.a. movie, a political movie. and it's all true. >> bill: so you want to make an entertainment though about a serious subject, rescuing americans from a dictatorship, iran. >> i did. the serious aspect was this was a tribute to the folks in our clan did he say tine services and foreign service who are risking their lives over there tragically seeing examples of that very recently. and folks who are -- what they give up to serve us and to serve our country. >> bill: this is a valentine from ben affleck to the intelligence community. the same people who water boarded, the same peter who rendition, what are your liberal friends going to say to you? >> i don't worry too much about what my lib rap friends say. today i made a movie that my friends who are democrats and republicans can both watch. it's not a political movie. >> bill: you didn't in the bac
been done. >> ronald reagan. >> middle class got knock ond their heels. the great recession crushed them. they need help now. >> next time you hear them say don't worry about it, we'll get wealthy people to pay their fair share. watch out, middle class, the tax bill is coming to you. >> greta: right now gets go to jamesville, wisconsin. his father and -- family and friends gathered to watch. so what did you think? the congressman's brother and sister-in-law, good evening to all of you. nice to see you. >> hi, greta. >> hi. >>. >> greta: tobin i've gotten word you just got off the phone and received first phone call and from your brother. what did he have to say? >> this is just like paul. he was interested in how our evening went. and he knew there are four 500 people here supporters with very, very loyal thoughts and he wanted to know our evening went and sure enough, a humble guy. he wanted feed back and i was very proud of him. very pleased with how he performed. >> greta: oakley did you get on the snon. >> no. i let tobin talk to his brother. >> greta: were you nervous oakley le
to go away. that is what he says he will do, he will negotiate it if elected. ronald reagan did not do it as a candidate. he did it as a president. how do you expect him to be bipartisan if he's not in office? >> bob: that's not what he said. when joe biden said he was in the room with reagan before young boy here out of -->> brian: he was three years old when senator biden was senator biden the first time. >> eric: i have to get to that one. this is so good. >> from thest night. administration stimulus. watch. >> $90 billion in green pork, campaign contributors and the special interest groups. there are just at the department of energy over 100 criminal investigations. >> go ahead. go ahead. >> look, his colleague -- >> crony capitalism. >> his colleagues, investigative committee spent months and months monthshs -- >> inspector general. >> months and months and found no evidence of cronyism. >> bob: why did not use the tape with ryan saiding he crony for his own snore bob, stop, stop! -- >> eric: bob, stop, stop! there are 100 investigations going on right now. inspector general. >>
ronald reagan after he lost? he said that mondale failed to land his knockout. not mondale is a liar and a horrible person. >> steve: they took the high road. >> gretchen: it's interesting because the president did say that he made a gaffe, that he wasn't his best performance, but put his other surrogates out there to call mitt romney as liar and he alluded to that himself on the stump. did that stick or did that further irritate voters who hadn't made up their mind yet? that's the big question in some these polls. was it solely the debate performance of mitt romney or was it the reaction as well by the obama camp that turned off voters as we're look? >> steve: the next debate is coming up on thursday. >> brian: i think it's going to be huge. >> steve: i do, too. because it will be the ohm time we'll get to see paul ryan and joe biden. joe biden being sequestered. he's out of commission for six days. meanwhile, paul ryan taking on reporters. here is an exchange with a local guy in detroit from the abc affiliate in flint. >> have a gun problem. this country has a crime problem. not a
and derailed laterr the entire term. and fast forward to 1980, jimmie carter against ronald reagan. and big story was the hostage release gave birth to night line and also birth to the american wondering would today be the day. october day right before the election came the release of the hostages. >> steve: surprise was, that republicans thought jimmie carter was sitting on the release of the hostages. he worked out a deal with the iranian to get them loose. he hadn't . 144 days and ronald reagan they were. >> gretchen: on the day of inauguration of ronald reagan. it feels like 2000, bush-gore. five-days came the revelation that george bush was arrested for an old drunk while driving. >> brian: dwi. driving while intoxicate the poems close we saw what happened. two monthses of not knowing who the president was. >> steve: two months later president bush squaring off with john kerry. and osama bin laden tape just a few days before election. john kerry told the associated press it changed the entire dynamic andagitated people over 9/11 . of course, john kerry lostt. >> brian: but kerry though
it was by ronald reagan and speaker -- democratic speaker tip o'neill. but the basic structure is sound. but i want to talk about the values behind social security and medicare. and then talk about medicare because that's the big driver of our deficits right now. you know, my grandmother -- some of you know -- helped to mee raise me. my grandfather died a while back. my grandmother died 3 days before i was elected president. she was fiercely independent, only had a high school education, started as a secretary and ended up being the vice-president of a local bank. and she ended up living alone by choice. and the reason she could be independent was because of social security and medicare. she had worked all her life, put in this money and understood that there was a basic guarantee, a floor under which she could not go. that's the perspective i bring when i think about what is called entitlements. you know, the name itself implies some sense of dependency on the part of these folks. these are folks who worked hard, like my grandplrght and there are millions of people who are counting on this. so my
was somewhat in a position that ronald reagan was back in 1980, that people were looking for a change. carter had faced all of these difficulties, you know, the iranian hostage, double-digit misery index, in many respects worse situation than obama faces politically, but yet they were neck and neck going in. the people were looking for a reason to change. it was this irresponsible cowboy that the media had painted, really did he really qualify as a serious presidential candidate, and people saw him and decided that he did. i think to a certain extent that dynamic is playing out here. >> greta: one of the things that i thought hurt governor romney in these polls -- i mean, the polls were actually spectacular for governor romney in every way, except for a couple that caught my attention. one of them was that by 69 points to 7, a huge amount, swing voters say that president obama is the candidate who connects with ordinary americans. wing voters also prefer president obama on healthcare, medicare and foreign policy. not by those huge margins, but that whole bit about connecting with ordinary ame
as national direct for president ronald reagan's re-election team in 1984. he worked on numerous other campaigns. good to have you back. >> good morning. how are you, sir? bill: i'm fine, thank you. i want to get to specifics in a moment. generally speaking what are you seeing out there? >> momentum clearly gone toward romney. momentum is important in the closing days of the campaign. he has it. the that debate made him an acceptable alternative to the president. the president has done nothing basically in the last week to get himself back in the game. romney's enthusiastic, his people are enthusiastic. we always knew it would be a close race. right now people are very, very enthused about romney's opportunities. bill: you say that voters are judging him as a serious alternative. what happened in politics when you can make a statement like that? >> first of all an incumbent is always very difficult to beat. people hired him to do a job. obviously this president has not done the job. before you fire him, in essence what the voters have to do in november, you have to find someone else yo
. they have very different visions. for the record, ronald reagan reduced taxes on the rich and revenues went up. lou: governor romney made it clear that he will work with the democrats. megyn: lou dobbs, thank you so much. the supreme court this week takes up a case that could do away with decades of affirmative action. we will look at this long-standing law and why one property manager says it may not pass review by the justices be mad if they can make it into an academic sector of the school. megyn: a picture-perfect launch for the first cargo mission of the international space station. >> three, two, one. we have lift off. megyn: how about that. the falcons six rocket blasting off cape canaveral. it was built by spacex, which has a $1.6 billion deal with nasa to carry out resupply missions. it begins a three-day fight for space. it is carrying vital gear for the crew members at the space station. good for our sales become a thing of the past? it may sound nuts, but that question is being asked because of the supreme court case that raises questions about whether a company still owns the r
policy will rest on essentially the same views as ronald reagan's, that the way you achieve america's objectives in the world without unnecessary conflict is by dealing from a position of strength. this is a so-called peace through strength doctrine. i think what charles was saying is that obama has a very different view, that for obama it's america's strength that is provocative, that our presence in the world is what causes other people to behave badly to us, and that if we were less in the world, less assertive that things would be better. gene fits path strike called it the blame america first view and i think that's quite descriptive of how obama sees our place in the world. martha: when you look at iran, which i think most people accept as the most dangerous threat to the middle east, and to israel, certainly, that is out there right now, how do you think governor romney would handle that differently? it's a very difficult situation. >> i think he's trying to convey that after three and a half years, that the obama administration has donnie sepb tim donaghy essentially nothing
ronald reagan really was the gold standard of how to deliver a line during a debate. let's watch one of those. >> governor reagan, smank, began his political career campaigning around this nation against medicare. >> there you go again. are you better off than you were four years ago? >> we sort of combined two memorable moments there. there you go again, which was folks were and approachable and then are you better off? >> two great moments and reagan really decisively beat carter. there you go again was a way for reagan to quickly say to the audience like president carter is not in command of the facts. are you better off than four years ago captured in a nutshell are you better off in the economy from 1976 to 1908 was perfect. >> trying to spot the zingers to see if anybody had comedic one liners, again reagan did that against mondale. let's watch that moment. >> i will not make age an issue of this campaign. i am not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent's youth and inexperience. >> classic, right, nic? >> it was wonderful. because ronald reagan did poorly in the fi
that was interruption. that was also a put-down and vice president biden woos factually wrong. jfk, ronald reagan, george w. bush, all of them tax rates, and the end result was a an increase in money flowing to the treasury. revenues went up when tax rates went down. joe biden was wrong. jamie: stu varney doing fact check for us this morning. bill: last night the twitter verse was going nuts. the thing was going to explode if it went more. that line was the most tweeted comment last night. one minute after the line about jack kennedy, 58,000 tweets. that is what was going on out there. jamie: it is a talker. bill: we're just getting started. some on the right feeling vice president biden interrupted congressman ryan too much. we'll can the romney team this morning about all the morning after. jamie: sarah palin knows exactly what it is like to debate joe biden. ahead we'll get her reaction. bill: vice president's biden and laffer and facial expresses getting a lot of headlines. did ha help or hurt his campaign. mike huckabee here to weigh in on that. >> this is a bunch of stuff. jamie: what does
Search Results 0 to 34 of about 35 (some duplicates have been removed)